Subject: signing

Hi Nigel,

Glad to see you on line once again ! How is Hannah doing ? Have you found suitable signing videos ? We found one with 600 words, but it wasn't very good, and we had to return the loan anyway. Liisa is lucky to have a special ed teacher who has worked at the school for the deaf for 5 years and who is fluent in signing. Also her aide has taken some courses and is learning more. We still have signing lessons 1 hour per week, and most of the kindergarten staff join us.

In my message to Damaris Gelabert I referred to two children, aged 12 and 14, who had some 350 signs. They are siblings, their mother had learned signing early on, and they have been in a boarding school which follows the Steiner philosophy. So I think they've had quite a lot of signing - I just wonder if their achievements are indicative of the limits that our kids may face.

As Hannah and Liisa seem to possess the necessary cognitive and motor skills to use signs, it was interesting to hear that these siblings had their blood samples sent to the University Hospital of Essen, Germany, for further genetic tests. As you may remember, so was Liisa's sample. One of them showed a microdeletion in the imprinting control center, results of the other one have not yet arrived. We're expecting Liisa's results in the next few weeks.

I know some people don't like this del+, del- etc. stuff, but I cannot help seeing some merit in it, especially if the exact diagnosis helps us to predict the future more accurately.

BTW, do you have any comments on the recent discussion on nutrition, chemistry etc., or is your expertise in biology just tilted towards botany ? (As an economist, I know full well how specialized we nowadays are.)

With Best Regards,

Heikki Taimio, dad to Liisa (6, del-) Finland

Subject: Re: signing

Hi Heikki

On teaching AS kids to sign... We taught the as kid I work with a few signs, eat - more - thank you - please, and a few others. It's very encouraging to know that they can learn so many. This child is very jerky and can't turn her hands over, etc to do the signs correct. Do you modify them? Are all kids like this? Knowing that others have learned so many, I thinking of putting into her daily lessons - to learn more more of them.

thanks --KOKO

Subject: Re: signing

Hello Heikki:

I have been on line for a while but for the most part have been a passive observer.

Hannah is doing incredibly well and has fully adjusted to her new surroundings (she started Kindergarten last month)-she always seems to come through with flying colours when faced with a new challenge.

We are very fortunate in that Hannah's special needs assistant, who apart from being a delightful individual, is a signer (American Sign langauge) -I would say that Hannah is learning and using about 2-3 new words a week. She really seems very willing, almost anxious to learn. She has a wonderful visual memory (she now recognises and can pick out 6-10 letters and can draw the letter H) so I can't see a limit to the number of words she will have in her vocabulary. Her whole class is now involved-most of the children are quite excited about signing (have you noticed how children seem to be fascinated by signs?) and we have been approached by a number of parents who have told us how delighted they are that their children are being exposed to this form of communication.

As far as videos go- we received Beauty and the Beast a few weeks ago-it uses American Sign Language and also has sound. When we first watched it, we couldn't believe how awful it was -it seemed incredibly amateurish but, surprise surprise, Hannah loved it- it immediately displaced her other signing (and regular) videos and I would say that Hannah has watched it 50 to 100 times (we had a brief interuption when we had to repair the TV after Hannah squirted a juice box full of orange juice through the speaker grill into the TV!).

With regards to Koko's question about modifying signs-I would say that at Hannah has modified at least half of the signs she uses-this doesn't bother us at all-the most important thing is that she communicates.

As far as the recent discussion on nutrition, chemistry etc-my expertise is no greater than yours-my training is in physics and now I play around with plants and water.

All the best

Nigel

Subject: Re: signing

Hi everyone, With regards to signing videos where can I get them?

In Christ, Sam Henderson

Subject: Re: signing

One of the best catalogues I have found comes from

Harris Communications Inc. 15159 Technology Drive Eden Prairie, MN, 55344-7714, TEL 1-800 825 6758, Fax 1-612 906 1099.

The company supplies a wide range of products for the Deaf or hard-of hearing. They have a very large selection of videos for both children and adults. All are in American Sign Language (I still haven't found any Signed English videos) most have voice-over. They also have an excellent selection of sign language books.

Also a useful website is the Deaf Education homepage (www.educ.kent.edu/deafed/home.htm)

Nigel Livingston

Subject: VS: signing

Koko Oswald wrote:

Hi Heikki

Hi Koko,

350 is way beyond the highest number of signs I've seen mentioned in the literature on AS. It is said that the cognitive and motor skills of most AS kids are so poor that it is virtually impossible for them to learn more than a few signs, but I don't know how seriously we should take those reports. I guess it is best to try with each individual child and remember that they need a lot of practice anyway.

No, we don't modify the signs, although she's not perfect. In OT as well as in many other situations every effort is made to develop her motor skills so as to improve her signing.

Heikki Taimio, dad to Liisa (6, del-) Finland

Subject: Signing:Never say never

Marianne,

Yes and yes...to your questions:

>>> Do you think signing increases Ben's receptive language skills or are you trying to teach him to sign?<<<<

I don't go crazy at home (I've only taken one ASL course, but I do have a good reference book, and I try to work on signs that Ben uses at school), but yes, I do sign with Ben at home. He understands quite a few signs, but I always pair it with the word too. "Cookie, Ben?" paired with the sign for "cookie." In fairness to Ben not being verbal, I try to keep my verbalizations simple and brief with him, and I try to pair it with something visual -- either a sign or an object. This was a Dr. Calculator recommendation which I think makes lots of sense.

I have been using signs with him for a long time, and I never even thought he would ever be able to sign himself, but lo and behold, last year in school he started to sign for things like "music" (he has his own adapted sign for this -- holding his hands over his ears and moving his head from side to side because this is like having the earphones on:-) and "bathroom". Interesting observation about his own signs, though, at school they continue to use ASL signs, which Ben clearly understands. Sometimes, though, he responds in kind with his own sign, which the school folks have readily learned and accepted:-)

Lately, too, he has been using his sad face:-( as a means of communicating.

Don't ever give up on Emily. Ben didn't start using signs until he was 8, but he clearly knew what a lot of signs meant. I think the pairing of the visual with the verbal helps their receptive skills a lot. Emily actually sounds a lot like Ben in many ways (no sleep disorder, no lack of pigmentation, Klonopin works, etc.). I always used to think Ben was at the average functioning level for AS and probably would never do some things that some of what seemed to be higher functioning kids could do, but now I'm not so sure.

So yes, sign with Emily as much as you can. I try to teach myself a new sign each week. (I'll look at the name of the book I use when I go home and post it tomorrow.) It's a great engager at school, too, because the kids all love to learn to sign!!

Best wishes,

Jeanne, mom to Ben, AS, 9 [seltzerfam@aol.com]

Subject: Re: Signing:Never say never

Jeanne, I bet I have the same book (I can't remember the name either) but it's pretty comprehensive and used as a textbook in ASL courses. I've been thinking...it really makes sense to sign to Emily because otherwise, how would she consider it a viable way to communicate! I know her spec. ed. teacher and aides know it because they use it with a couple of kids with Down Syndrome, so I'll ask them to start using it with Emily.

Thanks! I get so many good ideas here!!! Marianne (Emily,6.11,del+)

Subject: Re: Signing

Marianne and Jeanne, I agree. Signing is one of the best things that has ever happened for us and Stacey. Her pre-school teacher, Maureen, started signing with Stacey about 3 years ago. At first Stacey had no idea what all that hand motion was about, but now she has a signing vocabulary of about 12-15 words (words that she understands the meaning of), and she uses about 6-8 of them independently and appropriately. She is now to the point where she can put three signs together to form a small sentence. "Stacey wants..." eat/drink/play/swing/Elmo, etc. Her new teacher this year is fluent in sign and signs all day long in class, but only emphasizes the nouns and verbs with Stacey and is very willing to accept Stacey's slightly modified versions of the signs. Don't give up, this took over 3 years to get this far and is an on-going process. BUT...boy is it wonderful to be able to "talk" to your Angel!!

Kathy Mom to Stacey, almost 7, UPD

PS. I'm no where near being fluent in sign. I know about as much as Stacey does. When she learns a new sign, the teacher teaches me, too! I need to take a course.

Subject: Re: Signing

Jeanne & Kathy (and anyone else who knows)

What's the sign for "on" and "off"? As in, "Do you want to take your shoes off?" (I would just sign "Shoes off?") It's not in my book...odd? (BTW, I have "The Joy of Signing")

Marianne (Emily,6.11,del+)

Subject: Re: Signing

Dear Marianne,

I don't know the sign for "off," but guess what? Sara just added that word to her spoken vocabulary! We were sitting on the couch watching (of course) TV. I took her shoes off, and she kept pushing her feet at me saying "oeuf, oeuf!" Because I am a cultured multilingual kind of guy, I thought she wanted scrambled eggs. Slowly it dawned: she wanted her socks oeuf! So I hard-boiled them for her.

Please forgive my bragging. Martha (mother of Sara, 10 yrs.)

Subject: Re: Signing

Martha, C'est magnifique! Brag away... Marianne

Subject: Re: Signing

At the Colorado conference, the speech specialist who spoke advocated our signing to our kids even if the kids never learned to sign at all. Her reasoning made sense to me: the movement of our hands gives the kids something to focus on as we speak, and by making the same movements for the same words over and over we reinforce their receptive communication skills. She suggested that we use all sorts of methods--boards, sign, speech, whatever. She said some of it would work in some situations with some kids and that confusion would not be a problem if we use different techniques for different situations. We should just bombard our kids with communication of every sort.

I sort of backed off on teaching signs to Sara when she started to talk this summer, but I'm going to get back onto it because her speech is not clear enough for outsiders to understand, and her signs might be.

Subject: Re: Signing

We have Shannon seeing a private speech therapist and he has a person working with him trying to teach her sign language. We spoke on the phone and he said it is going slow but they have a few signs, which is a good starting place. One interesting point that Dede told me is that one day they went to the dentist and he gave her some Valium so he could work on her. Dede said it did not put her to sleep and afterward they went to the speech therapist. She could not believe how calm and cooperative she was with the teacher, usually she gets a little wild and has pulled the teachers hair once or twice. This brings up some questions I have:

Does anyone have any experience using this kind of medication to help a child pay attention during training?

Also does anybody have any knowledge or successes using positive reinforcement and operant conditioning, teaching sign language in the harder to reach cases?

What about motor skills in the hands and fingers, are they taught to approximate the sign when they cannot shape their hands properly?

Kathy Bromley: What are your signing experiences with Shannon? I think I might be ready for those e-mail addresses you were telling me about.

The Speech Language Pathologist I spoke with explained that many college and high school students are taking sign language as their required language. It is easier than learning a second spoken language. Suggesting we should be more creative with the school when discussing Shannon's IEP. Asking that they try using a student interested in working with Shannon as part of their signing course. Either from the college or the school and at home or in the class room. The therapist would let the students come to his office when Shannon is there and teach them to work within the program. He also told me when the school denies teaching speech and language to a child. It is all in the wording when convincing them they are wrong.

How can we achieve our Educational Goals? How can my child get an education if not taught language skills however basic?

The school asked us to bring a video of Shannon's ability to communicate when we have the next meeting in a few weeks and they may reconsider. So we are trying to accumulate all the fire power we can, dump it in their laps and stand there with a lit match. This is a slow process but we are happy to chip away at this. All I know is the more stimulus, interaction and repetition Shannon or any special kid gets the better! I do not believe in the wipe, feed, and vegetate, untrainable classes some schools conduct.

Any input would be appreciated!

Thanks,

Harold (uncle to Shannon 16)

Subject: Re: Signing

Harold,

Re: conditioning. All of Katie's therapists still use sensory stim to calm her down prior to sessions or during, when she becomes uncooperative. What she likes is to have her arms stroked with a surgical sponge/brush. They say it really helps. I'm sure something could be found like that for Shannon. Also, a reminder, IV Valium is used to treat severe seizures. I don't know Shannon's meds or status in regard to them, but perhaps that's why it worked so well. We've just about given up with SL for Katie because of her very poor motor control in her hands. That's why achieving an isolated index point is such a big deal, it enables her to use her talker and comm boards. We came to realize that her ability to create readily recognizable signs wasn't any better than to create spoken language, and prefer to concentrate on other comm methods while encouraging any and all vocalization. We make sure that "speech" therapy is designated as communication therapy somewhere in planning for her program.

Deanna

Subject: Re: Signing

I just noticed a couple of your questions and was wondering if this could help. You ask about reinforcement for signing. With Lacey, this is exactly how we teach her. When we want her to sign "more" for example, she will get more if she signs, and if not, she does not get reinforced. Same for eat. She will have to skip a bite until she signs eat. She does have problems with making the exact sign, so we do reward for close approximations, as long as she tries and it is understandable that that is what she is trying to communicate. It does not take her long to catch on when she wants something!! As far as a new sign, we use shaping--rewarding for close approximations to the desired behavior--so when she was first learning the sign for eat, we didn't starve her. We would use full physical assist until we thought had it mastered, then went to partial physical so she could practice, and then to gestural where we modeled it, and finally independent. She is very good about getting our attention when she wants something. This is what we do for all of our programs. I don't know if this is what you are looking for, and I probably could have explained it better, but I am limited by fiber-optics! If you have any questions, or if I jsut don't make sense, let me know.

Suzan Goffinet

Subject: Re: Signing

I had similar experience teaching sign to our daughter. We had to make sure she had mastered the shoulder stability & later wrist stability in order to physically come close to making the sign. We specifically chose initial signs which didnot require crossing midline or two hands to complete. She cognitively understood the sign but physically had difficulty mastering the muscular coordination and the start/stop/modulation of the movement. The most effective way to help her be successful was the seat her in a seat like a bucket seat of a car which gave more shoulder support & find a song that had the word we were signing in it. The music allowed her easier control over her stop/start & she was so happy and infinitely less frustrated to produce the sign almost immediately. This still remains the most successful way for her.

Linda - mother to Kinsley 15 del-

Subject: Valium - Signing

Harold, One of My daughter's seizure meds. is valium based(Nitrazepam). We noticed the biggest improvement since starting this medicine, but the doctor's think we owe the success to the fact that her seizures have stopped. I can't say she's cooperating in therapy- her attention span is so low. I will talk to her speech therapist at our upcomming meeting.

Also, We have been trying to teach Alyson the "I LOVE YOU" sign. She really is trying. She holds up her pointer finger, sometimes she uses both hands to get all the right fingers.

After hearing all the great stories about other children signing, I'm going to go out and buy a book and try to learn some new ones.

Also Martha... my nephews school had to cut their computer lab, due to lack of funding. In place of that they started a sign language class. He now takes sign language twice a week. He's so happy that he can now learn to communicate with Alyson.

Have to go my hands are sooo cold I can't type Laura Good(Alyson 6)

Marianne and whoever else is interested,

The book I use to look up signs is very easy to follow: "The Perigee Visual Dictionary of Signing" by Rod Butterworth & Mickey Flodin. It was recommended to me by Ben's inclusion teacher. I like it because it gives an easy description, a picture of what the hands are doing, and also a memory aid so you can remember the sign (I need all the memory aids I can get:-)

For the sign for "on": With both palms facing down, place the right flat hand on the back of the left flat hand.

It doesn't have "off" per se, but you could use "away": Move the curved right hand away from the body to the right.

Hope this helps you do whatever it is you're trying to do...FYI, the sign for "shoes" is very close to the sign for "more" so for shoes I just actually use Ben's shoes so as not to confuse him.

Regards,

Jeanne, mom to Ben, AS, 9 [seltzerfam@aol.com]